toonshading (organic/ characters) 2004-02-20 - By jordibares
Back
Just want to translate a bit of what the author is writing in spanish.
"Por ultimo combino la placa dibujada a mano con la placa de color y el
resultado es una vinyeta mas del comic"
"At last i combine both the color layer with the hand drawn layer so it looks
more like comic"
(i don't know if this refers to all the images that he is talking about but you
can see, he is using the line shade as a rough guide of where to draw the lines
)
http://www.reyes-infografica.com/gallery/agudin02.php
jordibares
On Fri, 20 Feb 2004 06:27:45 -0500
"Michael Arias" <micharia@(protected)> wrote:
> mike here. below...
>
> -- --Original Message-- --
> From: owner-xsi@(protected) __ ___ +
> Sent: 2004/02/20 (___) 5:50
> To: XSI@(protected)
> Cc:
> Subject: Re: toonshading (organic/ characters)
>
>
>
> thank you for this explanation michael...
>
> >> no problem.
>
> i know it's not just applying a shader and some few settings. - i saw the
appleseed trailer weeks ago and the jp.co version days ago and was very
impressed, didn't know they use xsi. - are you working as special-project
support on this as well?
>
> >> the producer and director are old friends of mine and though, towards the
end of the project i spent some time with the character crew, i didn't
contribute much except suggest some techniques and also fix a couple bugs (!)
they found in the 3.5 version. a good bunch of artists.
>
> to come back on the topic. i've seen also some other impressive results done
with the cartoonreyes plugin from the spanish company reyes-infografica. here
are some examples: http://www.reyes-infografica.com/imagen/cartoon/images
/under03.jpg / http://www.reyes-infografica.com/gallery/agudin04.php / http:/
/www.reyes-infografica.com/gallery/agudin02.php
>
> >> nice stuff indeed.
>
> i guess it's nothing that can't be done with the xsi-toonshader as well. it
just depends on the workflow and i'm still trying to find out the best one.
>
> >> i agree. and yes, finding the right workflow really is the trick. you
should take a close look at todd's tutorials and also might want to study some
of psyop's work. not "anime style" strictly speaking, but very illuminating
nonetheless. there's also a german company that's done some wonderful work,
either with si3d or xsi's toonshaders. the "show me heaven" clip is great. http
://www.fiftyeight.com/ <http://www.fiftyeight.com>
>
> i tried with modeling particular areas to get the desired look of ink. on
some perspectives it looks good while when on different it looks strange. maybe
i'll just need to wrestle around for a while like you and once i'll get there.
>
> >> well, at least on appleseed, alot of tweaking was done to get things to
look right on each shot. and this, more than anything else, is probably what
separates the weat from the chaff, so to speak. i don't think there's any
algorithm that will look perfect in any setting without some shot-by-shot
adjustment. if you start to get tired of the tweaking, just think for a moment
about what traditional animators have to go through to achieve these effects...
>
> regards
>
>
> Michael Arias wrote:
>
> Hi, Mike here. Organic characters are indeed a challenge - not just for
toon rendering, but for any style, pictorial or photorealistic. What one has to
understand first of all is that contour placement is, first and foremost, a
modelling challenge - NOT a rendering challenge (though there are workarounds
available, like using the "Unblending" features in XSI's toon shaders (see Todd
Akita's great tutorial at www.softimage.com). The toon lens shader makes a lot
of assumptions about where you want lines placed - inside, outside, near/far,
between materials, etc. and also allows a great deal of control over line
placement and appearance. But unless the contours are actually there on the
surface, the renderer won't "ink" them. One has a similar challenge when
generating photorealistic imagery: the algorithms at work decide where
highlights and shadows (for example) are drawn but if there's nothing there to
cast shadows, or if a surface is facing the wrong way, you just won'!
t get them. For contour details to appear correctly they have to be modelled
(although, as I mention, there are workarounds for exceptional cases). Take a
look at the http://www.apple.co.jp/quicktime/trailers/appleseed_large.html
Appleseed trailer, and notice the contour details on the old man's face, where
it appears. The characters here were all rendered using XSI's toon shaders and,
regardless of what one thinks about the movie, I think there is some impressive
stuff there - both "organic" and "mechanical" in nature. But I think it is also
safe to say that we are only now seeing the first worthwhile efforts to
simulate cel animation artwork (and there is doubtless lots of room for
improvement). Good modelling is hard work and much more demanding than
adjusting a few sliders on a lens shader. But, when done correctly, modelling
can yield great results - naturalistic or stylized, when rendered in a
photorealistic style or using something like the toon shaders. Some techniq!
ues work better than others - subdivision surface crease contr!
ol is cr
itical if you're using subds, and some types of geometry are easier to work
with than others (for example, generally speaking, NURBS are only really useful
for creating smoothly varying surfaces with uniform detail). Another thing to
consider is that hand-drawn animation artwork, though it may emulate reality,
is very much dependent on the hand of the artist in question - just like
modelling. No two artists will draw the same character the same way, regardless
of how detailed character sheets are made, and a character seen from one angle
may, when seen from another angle, reveal itself to be a completely different
"geometry". When drawing animation, an artist makes decisions primarily on what
looks good - and these decisions are made on a frame-by-frame basis - there's
no way to achieve that in CG if one is not willing to get one's hands dirty
with details (like modelling wrinkles creases so that contour lines will appear
consistently). By the way, I say this all because I t!
oo have wrestled much with these challenges. I only wish it were as easy as
applying a shader... I am happy to continue this discussion with you - either
on this forum, or directly. m.
>
> -- --Original Message-- --
> From: owner-xsi@(protected) 代�___ +
> Sent: 2004/02/19 (�__�) 18:32
> To: XSI@(protected)
> Cc:
> Subject: toonshading (organic/ characters)
> i was doing some toonshading research, trying to come up with some anime
> ink & paint results instead of these typical common toonshading
> results... but it's just hard or even impossible to get those anime 2d
> looks on organic characters... (with no sunglasses, mechanical masks/
> gear, etc.)
>
> in 2d the ink lines represent all the important contours supported by
> shadows and the main cel-paint of the particular element (see here an
> example: http://www.production-ig.co.jp/anime/gits3/episode01.html) - in
> 3d it would be very difficult or even impossible to achieve that
> "toonshading" you see on the frame with the two older men... i am
> especially talking about the ink-lines. maybe texturing them would be a
> way but usually ink-lines change with direction & perspective too.
>
> what would one other suggest? i know 3d-toon is good for mechanical
> workflow... but with "naked", organic characters... it seems rather
> difficult.
> it would be nice to hear what michael arias would say...
>
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