 | | | toonshading (organic/ characters) | toonshading (organic/ characters) 2004-02-20 - By +
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thank you for this explanation michael...
i know it's not just applying a shader and some few settings. - i saw
the appleseed trailer weeks ago and the jp.co version days ago and was
very impressed, didn't know they use xsi. - are you working as
special-project support on this as well?
to come back on the topic. i've seen also some other impressive results
done with the cartoonreyes plugin from the spanish company
reyes-infografica. here are some examples:
http://www.reyes-infografica.com/imagen/cartoon/images/under03.jpg /
http://www.reyes-infografica.com/gallery/agudin04.php /
http://www.reyes-infografica.com/gallery/agudin02.php
i guess it's nothing that can't be done with the xsi-toonshader as well.
it just depends on the workflow and i'm still trying to find out the
best one. i tried with modeling particular areas to get the desired look
of ink. on some perspectives it looks good while when on different it
looks strange. maybe i'll just need to wrestle around for a while like
you and once i'll get there.
regards
Michael Arias wrote:
> Hi, Mike here. Organic characters are indeed a challenge - not just
> for toon rendering, but for any style, pictorial or photorealistic.
> What one has to understand first of all is that contour placement is,
> first and foremost, a modelling challenge - NOT a rendering challenge
> (though there are workarounds available, like using the "Unblending"
> features in XSI's toon shaders (see Todd Akita's great tutorial at
> www.softimage.com). The toon lens shader makes a lot of assumptions
> about where you want lines placed - inside, outside, near/far, between
> materials, etc. and also allows a great deal of control over line
> placement and appearance. But unless the contours are actually there
> on the surface, the renderer won't "ink" them. One has a similar
> challenge when generating photorealistic imagery: the algorithms at
> work decide where highlights and shadows (for example) are drawn but
> if there's nothing there to cast shadows, or if a surface is facing
> the wrong way, you just won't get them. For contour details to appear
> correctly they have to be modelled (although, as I mention, there are
> workarounds for exceptional cases). Take a look at the
> http://www.apple.co.jp/quicktime/trailers/appleseed_large.html
> Appleseed trailer, and notice the contour details on the old man's
> face, where it appears. The characters here were all rendered using
> XSI's toon shaders and, regardless of what one thinks about the movie,
> I think there is some impressive stuff there - both "organic" and
> "mechanical" in nature. But I think it is also safe to say that we are
> only now seeing the first worthwhile efforts to simulate cel animation
> artwork (and there is doubtless lots of room for improvement). Good
> modelling is hard work and much more demanding than adjusting a few
> sliders on a lens shader. But, when done correctly, modelling can
> yield great results - naturalistic or stylized, when rendered in a
> photorealistic style or using something like the toon shaders. Some
> techniques work better than others - subdivision surface crease
> control is critical if you're using subds, and some types of geometry
> are easier to work with than others (for example, generally speaking,
> NURBS are only really useful for creating smoothly varying surfaces
> with uniform detail). Another thing to consider is that hand-drawn
> animation artwork, though it may emulate reality, is very much
> dependent on the hand of the artist in question - just like modelling.
> No two artists will draw the same character the same way, regardless
> of how detailed character sheets are made, and a character seen from
> one angle may, when seen from another angle, reveal itself to be a
> completely different "geometry". When drawing animation, an artist
> makes decisions primarily on what looks good - and these decisions are
> made on a frame-by-frame basis - there's no way to achieve that in CG
> if one is not willing to get one's hands dirty with details (like
> modelling wrinkles creases so that contour lines will appear
> consistently). By the way, I say this all because I too have wrestled
> much with these challenges. I only wish it were as easy as applying a
> shader... I am happy to continue this discussion with you - either on
> this forum, or directly. m.
>
> -- --Original Message-- --
> From: owner-xsi@(protected) 代ç?â +
> Sent: 2004/02/19 (æŨ) 18:32
> To: XSI@(protected)
> Cc:
> Subject: toonshading (organic/ characters)
> i was doing some toonshading research, trying to come up
> with some anime
> ink & paint results instead of these typical common
> toonshading
> results... but it's just hard or even impossible to get
> those anime 2d
> looks on organic characters... (with no sunglasses,
> mechanical masks/
> gear, etc.)
>
> in 2d the ink lines represent all the important contours
> supported by
> shadows and the main cel-paint of the particular element
> (see here an
> example:
> http://www.production-ig.co.jp/anime/gits3/episode01.html) -
> in
> 3d it would be very difficult or even impossible to achieve
> that
> "toonshading" you see on the frame with the two older men...
> i am
> especially talking about the ink-lines. maybe texturing them
> would be a
> way but usually ink-lines change with direction &
> perspective too.
>
> what would one other suggest? i know 3d-toon is good for
> mechanical
> workflow... but with "naked", organic characters... it seems
> rather
> difficult.
> it would be nice to hear what michael arias would say...
>
> ---
> Unsubscribe? Mail Majordomo@(protected) with the following
> text in body:
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>
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thank you for this explanation michael...
<p>i know it's not just applying a shader and some few settings. - i saw
the appleseed trailer weeks ago and the jp.co version days ago and was
very impressed, didn't know they use xsi. - are you working as special-project
support on this as well?
<p>to come back on the topic. i've seen also some other impressive results
done with the cartoonreyes plugin from the spanish company reyes-infografica.
here are some examples: <A HREF="http://www.reyes-infografica.com/imagen
/cartoon/images/under03.jpg">http://www.reyes-infografica.com/imagen/cartoon
/images/under03.jpg</A>
/ <A HREF="http://www.reyes-infografica.com/gallery/agudin04.php">http://www
.reyes-infografica.com/gallery/agudin04.php</A> / <A HREF="http://www.reyes
-infografica.com/gallery/agudin02.php">http://www.reyes-infografica.com/gallery
/agudin02.php</A>
<p>i guess it's nothing that can't be done with the xsi-toonshader as well.
it just depends on the workflow and i'm still trying to find out the best
one. i tried with modeling particular areas to get the desired look of
ink. on some perspectives it looks good while when on different it looks
strange. maybe i'll just need to wrestle around for a while like you and
once i'll get there.
<p>regards
<br>
<p>Michael Arias wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE> Hi, Mike here. Organic characters are
indeed a challenge - not just for toon rendering, but for any style, pictorial
or photorealistic. What one has to understand first of all is that contour
placement is, first and foremost, a modelling challenge - NOT a rendering
challenge (though there are workarounds available, like using the "Unblending"
features in XSI's toon shaders (see Todd Akita's great tutorial at <a href=
"http://www.softimage.com">www.softimage.com</a>). The
toon lens shader makes a lot of assumptions about where you want lines
placed - inside, outside, near/far, between materials, etc. and also allows
a great deal of control over line placement and appearance. But unless
the contours are actually there on the surface, the renderer won't "ink"
them. One has a similar challenge when generating photorealistic imagery:
the algorithms at work decide where highlights and shadows (for example)
are drawn but if there's nothing there to cast shadows, or if a surface
is facing the wrong way, you just won't get them. For contour details to
appear correctly they have to be modelled (although, as I mention, there
are workarounds for exceptional cases). Take a look at the <font size=-1>
<a href="http://www.apple.co.jp/quicktime/trailers/appleseed_large.html" target=
"_BLANK">http://www.apple.co.jp/quicktime/trailers/appleseed_large.html</a><
/font>
Appleseed trailer, and notice the contour details on the old man's face,
where it appears. The characters here were all rendered using XSI's toon
shaders and, regardless of what one thinks about the movie, I think there
is some impressive stuff there - both "organic" and "mechanical" in nature.
But I think it is also safe to say that we are only now seeing the first
worthwhile efforts to simulate cel animation artwork (and there is doubtless
lots of room for improvement). Good modelling is hard work and much
more demanding than adjusting a few sliders on a lens shader. But, when
done correctly, modelling can yield great results - naturalistic or stylized,
when rendered in a photorealistic style or using something like the toon
shaders. Some techniques work better than others - subdivision surface
crease control is critical if you're using subds, and some types of geometry
are easier to work with than others (for example, generally speaking, NURBS
are only really useful for creating smoothly varying surfaces with uniform
detail). Another thing to consider is that hand-drawn animation artwork,
though it may emulate reality, is very much dependent on the hand of the
artist in question - just like modelling. No two artists will draw the
same character the same way, regardless of how detailed character sheets
are made, and a character seen from one angle may, when seen from another
angle, reveal itself to be a completely different "geometry". When drawing
animation, an artist makes decisions primarily on what looks good - and
these decisions are made on a frame-by-frame basis - there's no way to
achieve that in CG if one is not willing to get one's hands dirty with
details (like modelling wrinkles creases so that contour lines will appear
consistently). By the way, I say this all because I too have wrestled
much with these challenges. I only wish it were as easy as applying a shader...
I
am happy to continue this discussion with you - either on this forum, or
directly. m.
<blockquote dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><font size=-1>-- --Original
Message-- --</font>
<br><font size=-1><b>From:</b> owner-xsi@(protected) 代
ç
+</font>
<br><font size=-1><b>Sent:</b> 2004/02/19 (æ¨) 18:32</font>
<br><font size=-1><b>To:</b> XSI@(protected)</font>
<br><b><font size=-1>Cc:</font></b>
<br><font size=-1><b>Subject:</b> toonshading (organic/ characters)</font>
<br> <font size=-1>i was doing some toonshading research, trying to
come up with some anime</font>
<br><font size=-1>ink & paint results instead of these typical common
toonshading</font>
<br><font size=-1>results... but it's just hard or even impossible to get
those anime 2d</font>
<br><font size=-1>looks on organic characters... (with no sunglasses, mechanical
masks/</font>
<br><font size=-1>gear, etc.)</font>
<p><font size=-1>in 2d the ink lines represent all the important contours
supported by</font>
<br><font size=-1>shadows and the main cel-paint of the particular element
(see here an</font>
<br><font size=-1>example: <a href="http://www.production-ig.co.jp/anime/gits3
/episode01.html">http://www.production-ig.co.jp/anime/gits3/episode01.html</a>)
- in</font>
<br><font size=-1>3d it would be very difficult or even impossible to achieve
that</font>
<br><font size=-1>"toonshading" you see on the frame with the two older
men... i am</font>
<br><font size=-1>especially talking about the ink-lines. maybe texturing
them would be a</font>
<br><font size=-1>way but usually ink-lines change with direction &
perspective too.</font>
<p><font size=-1>what would one other suggest? i know 3d-toon is good for
mechanical</font>
<br><font size=-1>workflow... but with "naked", organic characters... it
seems rather</font>
<br><font size=-1>difficult.</font>
<br><font size=-1>it would be nice to hear what michael arias would say...<
/font>
<p><font size=-1>---</font>
<br><font size=-1>Unsubscribe? Mail Majordomo@(protected) with the following
text in body:</font>
<br><font size=-1>unsubscribe xsi</font></blockquote>
</blockquote>
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