toonshading (organic/ characters) 2004-02-20 - By Michael Arias
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Hi, Mike here.
Organic characters are indeed a challenge - not just for toon rendering, but
for any style, pictorial or photorealistic. What one has to understand first of
all is that contour placement is, first and foremost, a modelling challenge -
NOT a rendering challenge (though there are workarounds available, like using
the "Unblending" features in XSI's toon shaders (see Todd Akita's great
tutorial at www.softimage.com).
The toon lens shader makes a lot of assumptions about where you want lines
placed - inside, outside, near/far, between materials, etc. and also allows a
great deal of control over line placement and appearance. But unless the
contours are actually there on the surface, the renderer won't "ink" them. One
has a similar challenge when generating photorealistic imagery: the algorithms
at work decide where highlights and shadows (for example) are drawn but if
there's nothing there to cast shadows, or if a surface is facing the wrong way,
you just won't get them. For contour details to appear correctly they have to
be modelled (although, as I mention, there are workarounds for exceptional
cases).
Take a look at the http://www.apple.co.jp/quicktime/trailers/appleseed_large
.html <http://www.apple.co.jp/quicktime/trailers/appleseed_large.html>
Appleseed trailer, and notice the contour details on the old man's face, where
it appears. The characters here were all rendered using XSI's toon shaders and,
regardless of what one thinks about the movie, I think there is some impressive
stuff there - both "organic" and "mechanical" in nature. But I think it is also
safe to say that we are only now seeing the first worthwhile efforts to
simulate cel animation artwork (and there is doubtless lots of room for
improvement).
Good modelling is hard work and much more demanding than adjusting a few
sliders on a lens shader. But, when done correctly, modelling can yield great
results - naturalistic or stylized, when rendered in a photorealistic style or
using something like the toon shaders. Some techniques work better than others
- subdivision surface crease control is critical if you're using subds, and some
types of geometry are easier to work with than others (for example, generally
speaking, NURBS are only really useful for creating smoothly varying surfaces
with uniform detail).
Another thing to consider is that hand-drawn animation artwork, though it may
emulate reality, is very much dependent on the hand of the artist in question -
just like modelling. No two artists will draw the same character the same way,
regardless of how detailed character sheets are made, and a character seen from
one angle may, when seen from another angle, reveal itself to be a completely
different "geometry". When drawing animation, an artist makes decisions
primarily on what looks good - and these decisions are made on a frame-by-frame
basis - there's no way to achieve that in CG if one is not willing to get one's
hands dirty with details (like modelling wrinkles creases so that contour lines
will appear consistently).
By the way, I say this all because I too have wrestled much with these
challenges. I only wish it were as easy as applying a shader...
I am happy to continue this discussion with you - either on this forum, or
directly.
m.
-- --Original Message-- --
From: owner-xsi@(protected) 代理 +
Sent: 2004/02/19 (木) 18:32
To: XSI@(protected)
Cc:
Subject: toonshading (organic/ characters)
i was doing some toonshading research, trying to come up with some anime
ink & paint results instead of these typical common toonshading
results... but it's just hard or even impossible to get those anime 2d
looks on organic characters... (with no sunglasses, mechanical masks/
gear, etc.)
in 2d the ink lines represent all the important contours supported by
shadows and the main cel-paint of the particular element (see here an
example: http://www.production-ig.co.jp/anime/gits3/episode01.html) - in
3d it would be very difficult or even impossible to achieve that
"toonshading" you see on the frame with the two older men... i am
especially talking about the ink-lines. maybe texturing them would be a
way but usually ink-lines change with direction & perspective too.
what would one other suggest? i know 3d-toon is good for mechanical
workflow... but with "naked", organic characters... it seems rather
difficult.
it would be nice to hear what michael arias would say...
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<DIV>Hi, Mike here.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Organic characters are indeed a challenge - not just for toon rendering,
but for any style, pictorial or photorealistic. What one has to understand
first
of all is that contour placement is, first and foremost, a modelling
challenge - NOT a rendering challenge (though there are workarounds available,
like using the "Unblending" features in XSI's toon shaders (see Todd Akita's
great tutorial at <A href="http://www.softimage.com">www.softimage.com</A>).
</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The toon lens shader makes a lot of assumptions about where you want lines
placed - inside, outside, near/far, between materials, etc. and also allows a
great deal of control over line placement and appearance. But unless the
contours are actually there on the surface, the renderer won't "ink" them. One
has a similar challenge when generating photorealistic imagery: the
algorithms at work decide where highlights and shadows (for example) are drawn
but if there's nothing there to cast shadows, or if a surface is facing the
wrong way, you just won't get them. For contour details to appear correctly
they
have to be modelled (although, as I mention, there are workarounds for
exceptional cases).</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Take a look at the <A
href="http://www.apple.co.jp/quicktime/trailers/appleseed_large.html"
target=_BLANK><FONT
size=2>http://www.apple.co.jp/quicktime/trailers/appleseed_large.html</FONT></A
>
Appleseed trailer, and notice the contour details on the old man's face, where
it appears. The characters here were all rendered using XSI's toon shaders
and, regardless of what one thinks about the movie, I think there is some
impressive stuff there - both "organic" and "mechanical" in nature. But I think
it is also safe to say that we are only now seeing the first worthwhile
efforts to simulate cel animation artwork (and there is doubtless lots of room
for improvement).</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Good modelling is hard work and much more demanding than adjusting a few
sliders on a lens shader. But, when done correctly, modelling
can yield great results - naturalistic or stylized, when rendered in a
photorealistic style or using something like the toon shaders. Some techniques
work better than others - subdivision surface crease control is critical
if
you're using subds, and some types of geometry are easier to work with than
others (for example, generally speaking, NURBS are only really useful for
creating smoothly varying surfaces with uniform detail).</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Another thing to consider is that hand-drawn animation artwork, though it
may emulate reality, is very much dependent on the hand of the artist
in question - just like modelling. No two artists will draw the same character
the same way, regardless of how detailed character sheets are made, and a
character seen from one angle may, when seen from another angle, reveal itself
to be a completely different "geometry". When drawing animation, an artist
makes decisions primarily on what looks good - and these decisions are made on
a
frame-by-frame basis - there's no way to achieve that in CG if one is not
willing to get one's hands dirty with details (like modelling wrinkles creases
so that contour lines will appear consistently).</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>By the way, I say this all because I too have wrestled much with these
challenges. I only wish it were as easy as applying a shader...</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I am happy to continue this discussion with you - either on this forum, or
directly.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>m.</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV><FONT size=2>-- --Original Message-- -- <BR><B>From:</B>
owner-xsi@(protected) 代理 + <BR><B>Sent:</B> 2004/02/19 (木) 18:32
<BR><B>To:</B> XSI@(protected) <BR><B>Cc:</B> <BR><B>Subject:</B>
toonshading (organic/ characters)<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<P><FONT size=2>i was doing some toonshading research, trying to come up with
some anime</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>ink & paint results instead of these
typical common toonshading</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>results... but it's just
hard or even impossible to get those anime 2d</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>looks
on
organic characters... (with no sunglasses, mechanical masks/</FONT> <BR><FONT
size=2>gear, etc.)</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=2>in 2d the ink lines represent all the important contours
supported by</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>shadows and the main cel-paint of the
particular element (see here an</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>example: <A
href="http://www.production-ig.co.jp/anime/gits3/episode01.html">http://www
.production-ig.co.jp/anime/gits3/episode01.html</A>)
- in</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>3d it would be very difficult or even impossible
to achieve that</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>"toonshading" you see on the frame
with the two older men... i am</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>especially talking
about the ink-lines. maybe texturing them would be a</FONT> <BR><FONT
size=2>way but usually ink-lines change with direction & perspective
too.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=2>what would one other suggest? i know 3d-toon is good for
mechanical</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>workflow... but with "naked", organic
characters... it seems rather</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>difficult.</FONT>
<BR><FONT size=2>it would be nice to hear what michael arias would
say...</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=2>---</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>Unsubscribe? Mail
Majordomo@(protected) with the following text in body:</FONT> <BR><FONT
size=2>unsubscribe xsi</FONT> </P></BLOCKQUOTE>
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